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MONICA LEWINSKY'S GRAND JURY TESTIMONY

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

IN RE: GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS

Grand Jury Room No. 2
United States District Court
for the District of Columbia
3rd & Constitution, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20001

Thursday. August 20, 1998

The testimony of MONICA S. LEWINSKY was taken in the presence
of a full quorum of Grand Jury 97-2, impaneled on
September 19. 1997, commencing at 9:51 a.m., before:

MICHAEL EMMICK
KARIN IMMERGUT
Associate Independent Counsel
Office of Independent Counsel
1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Suite 490 North
Washington, D.C. 20004

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PROCEEDINGS

Whereupon,

MONICA S. LEWINSKY

was called as a witness and, after having been first duly sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Good morning, Ms. Lewinsky.

A Good morning.

QUESTION: As we did with your earlier grand jury testimony, my job is to advise you of your rights and obligations here at the beginning.

First off, you have a right under the Fifth Amendment to refuse to answer any questions that may tend to incriminate you. In this case, that right is qualified by the fact that you've signed an agreement to provide truthful -testimony in connection with our investigation. Do you understand that?

A Yes, I do.

QUESTION: In addition, you have the right to have counsel present outside the grand jury to answer any questions that you may have. Do you have counsel outside?

A Yes, I do.

QUESTION: Who is that?

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A Preston Burton.

QUESTION: And you understand that if you'd like to speak to your counsel, all you have to do is say "could I take a break and speak with my counsel?"

A Yes.

QUESTION: All right. You also in addition to those two rights, you have an obligation and that obligation is to tell the truth. That obligation is imposed on you because you have been put under oath and also because in connection with your agreement you're required to tell the truth. Do you understand that?

A Yea. I do.

MR. EMMICK: What I have placed in front of you is what is marked as ML-7. This is a chart that you have earlier testified about of contacts between yourself and the President.

As I indicated to you informally beforehand, this grand jury session today is for you to answer questions from the grand jurors.

And so without any further ado, I will ask the grand jurors if they have any questions of Ms. Lewinsky.

A JUROR: I think I'm going to start out.

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, in your testimony when you were with us on the 6th, you mentioned some of the steps that

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you took to maintain secrecy regarding your relationship:

that you would bring papers or he'd have papers or either you would accidentally bump into each other in the hallway: you always used Betty as the excuse for you to be waved in; and on many occasions you would go in one door and out of the other door.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: Are there any other methods you used that I've missed? That you used to maintain your secrecy?

THE WITNESS: Hem. I need to think about that for a minute.

A JUROR: And the second part to that question is were these ways to maintain your secrecy your idea or were they recommended to you by anyone?

THE WITNESS: I can answer the second part first.

A JUROR: Okay.

THE WITNESS, If that's okay.

A JUROR: That's fine.

TEE WITNESS: Some of them were my idea. Some of them were things that I had discussed with the President. think it was a mutual understanding between us that obviously we'd both try to be careful.

A JUROR: Do you recall at all specifically which ones he may have recommended to you as an idea on maintaining the secrecy?

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THE WITNESS: Yes and no. The issue of Betty being the cover story for when I came to the White House. it became my understanding I think most clearly from the fact that I couldn't come to see him after the election until -- unless Betty was there to clear me in and that one time when I asked him why, he said because if someone comes to see him, there's a list circulated among the staff members and then everyone would be questioning why I was there to see him. So --

MR. EMMICK: Let me try to ask some follow-ups in response to your question.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Were there ever any discussions between you and the President about what should be done with letters that you - -letters or notes that you had sent to him? That is to say, for example, did you ever write on the bottom of any letters what to do with those letters?

A It was my understanding that obviously he would throw them away or. if he decided to keep them, which I didn't think he did, he would put them somewhere safe.

I think what you're referring to is on the bottom once of a sort of joke memo that I sent to him I in a joking manner reminded him to throw the letter away, that it wasn't -- you know, that was a joke. So --

QUESTION: What about whether on your caller ID on your telephone the word POTUS would appear and whether anything

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was done in order to make sure that POTUS did not appear on your telephone?

A My caller ID at work, it would -- when the President called from the Oval Office, it would say POTUS and when he'd call from the residence, it was an asterisk. And I told him that. I didn't know if he knew that it said POTUS when he called from the office, and I assumed he didn't, because otherwise that would be sort of silly.

So I informed him of that and then one time he called me from the residence and he -- he called on a hard line -- I don't know. I shouldn't say "hard line' because I know that has some different terminology to it, but he called on a line that had a phone number attached to it and so when he called, he said, "Oh, did it ring up. you know, phone number? It didn't say my name, did it?"

And so it was -- that was something that I was concerned about.

QUESTION: Did he ever express to you a reluctance to leave messages on your telephone voice message system?
A At home?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q All right. Tell us about that.
A One time in a conversation he just said he didn't

like to leave messages.

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QUESTION: Okay. What about the times that you would visit him? Were those times selected in a way so that there weren't people around or that certain people weren't around?

A Yes.

QUESTION: Okay. Would you tell us about that?

A There were obviously people at the White House who didn't like me and wouldn't -- wouldn't be understanding of why I was coming to see the President or accepting of that and so there was always sort of an effort made that either on the weekends -- when I was working in the White House he told me that it was usually quiet on the weekends and I knew that to be true. And after I left the White House it was always when there weren't going to be a lot of people around.

QUESTION: And what about particular individual people? Would there be particular individual people who would be - -staffers in the oval area that you would try to avoid in order to help conceal the relationship?

A Yes. Nancy Hernreich, Stephen Goodin, Evelyn Lieberman. Pretty much anybody on the first floor of the West Wing.

A JUROR: How did all these people come to not like you so much? What were you doing? Were you breaking the rules of the White House? What were you doing to draw their attention to not liking you so much? Before the relationship.

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From the time you got there all the way up to the time -- what I'm saying is what did you do to deserve for them not to like you?

THE WITNESS: Before the relationship started?

A JUROR: Yes. What did You do from --

THE WITNESS: I don't think there was anything I did before the relationship started that - - the relationship started in November of '95. I had only been at the White House as an intern in the Old Executive Office Building for -- for a few months, so most of my tenure at the White House I was having a relationship with the President.

I think that - - the President seemed to pay attention to me and I paid attention to him and I think people were wary of his weaknesses, maybe. and thought -- in my opinion, I mean, this is - - I think that people - - they didn't want to look at him and think that he could be responsible for anything, so it had to all be my fault, that I was -- I was stalking him or I was making advances towards him. You know, as they've said, I wore inappropriate clothes, which is absolutely not true. I'm not really sure.

A JUROR: But you do admit a lot of the places that you weren't supposed to be you were always found. You do admit that there were things that you were doing, too, in order to see him that they were feeling that was going

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against the rules of the White House?

THE WITNESS: Uh --

A JUROR: You know, places that you were that you weren't supposed to be and hallways that you weren't supposed to be. you were seen in those places?

THE WITNESS: Yes and no. There really weren't any of these staffers who saw me in the places that I wasn't supposed to be. And that was part of the effort to conceal the relationship. So -- does that make sense?

I mean, when I was in the Oval Office with the President, no one else knew except for the Secret Service, no one else knew that I went in there. So for them to know --f for them to be disliking me for that reason, I don't think that they were really -- I don't know if they were aware of that or not.

I did make an effort, I think, to try to -- to have interactions with the President and I - - and I think that - -that was probably disturbing to them. I know that if the President was in the hall and he was talking to people and I passed by he'd -- he'd stop talking and say hi to me. I'm not really sure.

A JUROR: Just a follow-up to that.

THE WITNESS: Sure.

A JUROR: If they didn't see you, well, how did they know?

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THE WITNESS: I don't know what they knew. I --you know, I -- I'm not sure -- I --

A JUROR: Because if you maid you made an effort to hide yourself, you know, so you wouldn't see them, the Secret Service are the ones that saw you - -

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: Okay. So. I mean, how would they - - how did they know that you were there, you know, to want to keep you away from being there?

THE WITNESS: I don't know. Maybe -- I -- I mean, I've heard reported in the newspapers and on TV that the Secret Service, someone said something to Evelyn Lieberman and I had had an -- I don't know if I went over this the last time I was here, I had had a real negative interaction with Nancy Hernreich early on in my tenure at the White House and so - -

I think there was also -- I'm a friendly person and -- and I didn't know it was a crime in Washington for people -- for you to want people to like you and so I was friendly. And I guess I wasn't supposed to be.

A JUROR: So that interaction that you had with Evelyn Lieberman was when she was telling you what?

THE WITNESS: She stopped me in the hall and she asked me where I worked, in which office I worked, and I told her Legislative Affairs in the East Wing.

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And she said, "You're always trafficking up this area." You know, "You're not supposed to be here. Interns aren't allowed to go past the Oval Office."

And she - - she really startled me and I walked away and I want down to the bathroom and I was crying because - - I mean, when - - you know, when an older woman sort of chastises you like that, it's upsetting.

And then I thought about what she said and I realized that, well, I wasn't an intern any more. I was working there. And I kind of believe in clear communication, so I went back to Evelyn Lieberman, to Ms. Lieberman, and I -- I said, "You know, I just wanted to clarify with you that I work here, I'm not an intern. So. you know, I am allowed to go past the Oval Office.' I don't think I said that, but I had a blue pass.

And she looked at me and said, "They hired you?' And I was startled and then she said, "Oh, well, I think I mistook you for someone else or some other girl with dark hair who keeps trafficking up the area." And ever since then -- and that was maybe in December or January of '95 or

'96. So --

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, were you ever reprimanded or chastised by your immediate supervisor in Legislative Affairs for trafficking up the area or being where you weren't supposed to be or being away from your desk too much?

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Anything like that?

THE WITNESS: Being away from my desk had been mentioned to me, but trafficking up the area and being where I'm not supposed to be, no.

I--the-- I had a view of -- and this is sort of my view with work is that you get a lot more done and people are a lot more willing to help you when you have a personal interaction with them. And so the person who held the job before me would fax the drafts of his letters to the staff secretary's office and then at some point during the day when someone got the draft they would make the changes and then fax it back.

And I found it to be much more effective to take things over to the staff secretary's office and interact with the person -- I can't remember her name -- Helen -- to interact with Helen and have Helen edit the letters right then and there and then I could go back and to me it was a faster process.

So there was also -- you know, I also wanted to try to see the President. So, I mean, I did make efforts to try to see him in the hall or something like that because - -

A JUROR: So the route to the staff person's office was a route that you could still veer off and see the President?

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THE WITNESS: No. It -- it wasn't necessarily in front of the Oval Office or anything. There were -- we also had -- let me see if I can explain this, I'm sure you guys know by now that the West Wing is three stories. There's the basement, the first floor and the second floor. Legislative Affairs has an office on the second floor of the West Wing.

There are two ways to get to that office - - or three ways. I guess. There's the West Wing, you can cut across the Neat Wing lobby, which is where people coming to visit someone in the White House sit. There's going the back way, which you pass the Oval Office, but the door's always closed when the President's in there. And then you can go all the way down the stairs and all the way around and then all the way up two flights of stairs.

When I first started working there, it didn't seem appropriate to walk through the West -- to me, it didn't seem appropriate to walk through the West Wing lobby with papers when there were people who were visitors coming to sit and wait. I just -- I didn't think that was appropriate during the business time.

So I went the other way, behind - - which went past the Oval Office, not knowing that -- I guess you're not supposed to do that. It seemed silly. The door's closed and it's locked. And there wasn't this intention to see the

1070

President that way.

So -- am I -- did I answer your question?

A JUROR: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry.

MR. EMMICK: You know, one thing I might do is circle back to try to pick up some more concealment methods.

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Because you asked the question are there any other methods.

A JUROR: Yes.

MR. EMMICK: And I can ask a few more questions that might direct us in that area.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: For example, you have indicated earlier that it was Betty Currie who waved you in all the times during 1997 that you saw the President. Did you ever talk with the President about whether he could wave you in instead or whether it would be a good idea for him to wave you in personally?

A Yes. I think that that's what I mentioned earlier.

QUESTION: Oh, okay.

A That he and I had discussed it and he said he couldn't do that because then it would be on a list.

QUESTION: Okay. What about - - you had mentioned that you took a different route into the Oval Office than you would

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take out of the Oval Office. In addition, did you ever take routes to get to the Oval Office that seemed calculated to avoid certain Secret Service or White House personnel?

A Not Secret Service, but I -- I liked or I preferred to sort of meet up with him and then we'd walk in together. And I preferred to go in through the Rose Garden because then I wasn't going -- I wasn't risking the possibility of running into someone in the hall right outside the Oval Office. So - -

QUESTION: What about the routes that Betty would walk you in from the gates?

A Oh. When -- there were certain Secret Service officers who were friendly with Debi Schiff who Betty wanted to try to avoid because I guess they chatted with Debi Schiff a lot and there's a whole long story with Debi Schiff, so --

QUESTION: And would that be another way that you would help conceal your meetings with the President?

A Yes.

A JUROR: Just to back up for a minute. When you would meet the President and go in through the Rose Garden or meet the President before going into the Oval Office, did you discuss that with him ever about sort of what -- that that would be a way that would sort of be more concealing or - -

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THE WITNESS: We only did that, I think, twice. And the first time, it really was an accident. And so then the next time that we did that, I said -- you know, before --he would call me in my office before I would come see him and we'd figure out what we were going to do.

And I think I -- I know I suggested to him, I said, "I really like that because then it's just easier, it seems." And also, I -- for me personally, I didn't -- I didn't always want to be the one that was being seen going in. Does that make sense?

So that I wasn't always bringing in the papers and it was me going to him, that in this instance if someone saw it, being the Secret Service, he invited me. So -- for me, that just made me feel better.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: All right. I have a number of other questions about these alternative methods of concealment. Let me ask you this. I think you've testified earlier that most of the sexual contact that you had with the President tended to occur in the hallway, rather than in the study, although sometimes it was in the study itself.

Did that have anything to do with whether or not it would be easier to see you in the study as opposed to the hallway?

A I think so, but I don't specifically -- I don't

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specifically remember discussing that with the President, but there were circumstances that that sort of was obvious to me.

QUESTION: And would that include the fact that windows in the study tended to be uncurtained?
A Just that, windows. Yea.
Q Right. Yes, there were windows there.
A Yea.
Q And so you might be seen there.
A Yes.
MR. EMMICK: All right.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q In that regard, you also mentioned that you would

move from the oval area or that sometimes you'd start in the Oval Office and then you'd move towards the hallway. Did the President ever initiate that move?

A I think we both did. I mean, it just depended on the day. It wasn't --

QUESTION: Was it understood that you wouldn't actually have a sexual encounter in the Oval Office?

A I'm sure it was understood. I -- I -- I wouldn't have done that. I mean -- so -- I'm sure he wouldn't have done that.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Are there windows all around the Oval Office?

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A There are windows all around and it just -- I know this may sound silly, but it wouldn't be appropriate. You know.

QUESTION: What about any discussions with the President about not acknowledging one another at parties or photographs, for
example? -

A He called me in my office the day of Pat Griffin's

going away party and had asked me if I was going to go. I

said yes and he said, "Well, maybe we can get together after

that. "

And I told him I didn't think that was a good idea, that people were going to be watching. I was paranoid anyway and -- so I said, "I think it's a good idea if we just sort of ignore each other at the party and don't really say anything. " And that's what we did.

QUESTION: And what about with respect to a photograph that was taken at the party and whether - -

A I mean, we didn't discuss this. I didn't know there was going to be a picture taken. But I made an effort to stand on the -- I was the last person sort of on the outside of this picture so that -- I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to get close to the President, I was trying to -- whatever it was.

QUESTION: So in that case,- that would be a concealment effort, but not one that the President and you had

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collaborated on.

A No.

QUESTION: All right. What about an occasion when the President suggested that the two you might attend a movie and sort of bump into each other outside the movie? Tell us about that discussion.

A He told me he was going to watch a movie with some friends of his and that if I wanted to I could bump into him in the hall outside and then he'd invite me into the movie.

And I asked him if -- I think he said there were some friends and maybe some of his staff or I asked him if some of his staff was going to be there.

And he said yes and I don't remember who he said was going to be there, but I said I didn't think that was a good idea.

QUESTION: And why would you have to make prior arrangements for you to bump into each other rather than having sort of a - - you know, walk down the hall together to the movie?

A Well, I --

QUESTION: I know it's kind of obvious.

A For obvious reasons, I guess, because it wouldn't be appropriate. It -- people would -- people would wonder what was going on.

QUESTION: Right. Right. Okay. What about the fact that you made - - that you sent gifts and notes through Betty rather

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than directly to the President?

Was that something that was done in order to make it less obvious that the notes were actually to the President?

A Well, yes and no. You really -- if you send something directly to the President, if you send a gift to the President, if I sent something right now, well, I don't know, right now, but before this, it -- it -- it goes to the gift unit.

QUESTION: Right.

A And so I knew that Betty was the way -- I think that that's -- Walter Kaye would, you know, go through Betty, I think. And that's --

QUESTION: So it's yes and no, is the answer to that.

A You can't -- I mean, you can't send a courier thing to the President, you know, a courier to President Clinton, so - -

A JUROR: I have a question to follow up on that. When you would send gifts and notes and what have you to Betty, as you had testified, sometimes you'd have a funny card in there, sometimes it would be something sentimental.

Did you ever give Betty license to read any of them because you thought, "Hey, take a look at this, tell me what you think," any of the cards or notes or anything?

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THE WITNESS: I don't think so. Maybe I told her about a funny card or something. Not that I really remember. I don't -- I think especially if it were something that was ultra-sensitive, I don't -- you know, I don't --

A JUROR: Yes. That would probably be sealed.

THE WITNESS: Exactly.

A JUROR: But for any of the other little --

THE WITNESS: Might have been the jokes. Sometimes I would put together jokes I got on the Internet or e-mail jokes that I put together for him because, you know, everyone needs to laugh, so -- I think maybe -- maybe there was a time that I said. "Oh, you should look at these jokes, they're really funny."

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Other questions? Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, did you ever discuss with the President whether you should delete documents from your hard drive, either at the office or at home?

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: Nothing like that?

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: Did you ever discuss with the President whether you should deny the relationship if you were asked about it?

THE WITNESS: I think I always offered that.

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I think I've always --

A JUROR: In discussions with the President?

THE WITNESS: In discussions -- I told him I would always -- I would always deny it, I would always protect him.

A JUROR: And what did he say when you said that? What kind of response did you receive?

THE WITNESS: I said that often. I -- in my head, I'm seeing him smile and I'm hearing him saying "That's good," or -- something affirmative. You know. Not -- not --"Don't deny it."

A JUROR: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Sure.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

QUESTION: Ms. Lewinsky, with respect to the weekend visits, did the President ever initiate that idea or say anything about it's good if you come on the weekends?

A Yes. The -- I don't remember if it was the Wednesday or the Friday when the relationship first started, he said to me at some point, you know, "You can come see me on the weekends. I'm usually around on the weekends." So --

QUESTION: And did you understand what that meant?

A Yes. To me, it meant there aren't am many people around on the weekends, so --

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, when you -- now, this is a

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different kind of subject. When you first made the determination that you were moving to New York and you wanted to explore the possibilities of a job in private industry, can you recall how you first got the recommendation about Vernon Jordan's assistance in this endeavor?

THE WITNESS: I can't. I know that it was -- what

I don't remember was if it was my idea or Linda's idea. And

I know that that came up in discussions with her. I believe,

before I discussed it with the President. I know that I

suggested to the President or I -- I didn't suggest, I asked

the President if Mr. Jordan might be able to assist me.

A JUROR: To go back from the job search to what we were talking about before, I seem to recall, and I may be mistaken, when you were here before you said something about Tim Keating when you were fired, said something to you like maybe you can come back after the election.

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: And I wanted to just hear sort of a fuller explanation about that. Was it your understanding at the time that Tim Keating was sort of - - that he understood and was telling you that you were fired because of an appearance problem around the time of the election?

THE WITNESS: Not at all.

A JUROR: No?

THE WITNESS: No.

1080

A JUROR: The other question I have, and I apologize, it's a little bit sensitive, but did you and the President in sort of discussing cover stories and, you know, how - - you know, your desire to protect him from sort of what's going on now, did you ever talk about sort of --you know, that you weren't really having sex?

I mean, you said that he made this comment to you about not having -- you know, that certain actions have consequences at his age.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: Was there ever sort of an understanding that, well, oral sex isn't really sex? Or did you talk about that?

THE WITNESS: We didn't talk about it. Something that I thought on my own was one of the reasons that it -- at first that he didn't want to -- that he wouldn't let everything come to completion in terms of oral- sex was I thought that that sort of had to do with maybe that was his way of being able to feel okay about it, his way of being able to justify it or rationalize it that, well --

A JUROR: But you never discussed that.

THE WITNESS: No.

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ma. Lewinsky, getting back to -- I think you have a copy there of contacts between the President and

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Monica?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: After you left the White House, it seems as if you attended a number of public functions where you came in contact with him.

Was that by chance? Was that something you wanted

to do? Was it a way to see him? Was it something that he suggested?

Could you just tell us a little about that? THE WITNESS: Sure. Ho. Those were all ways for

me to get a chance to see him. I'm an insecure person and so I think -- and I was insecure about the relationship at times and thought that he would come to forget me easily and if I hadn't heard from him -- especially after I left the White House, it was - - it was very difficult for me and I always liked to see him and it -- and usually when I'd see him, it would kind of prompt him to call me. So I made an effort. would go early and stand in the front so I could see him, blab, blab, blab.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Let me ask a follow-up question to that because I think it may have been in about October of '96 when you had a telephone conversation with him just prior to you going to Billy Shaddock to get a photograph.

A Right.

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QUESTION: During the conversation before, did you and the President have any discussion about your dropping by and seeing him at a public departure?
A Yes.

QUESTION: All right. Would you tell us about that?

A Let's see. I spoke with him -- I think it was October 22nd, and then I saw him at an event October 23rd and he called that night and I had mentioned to him on -- I think it was a Tuesday, the first phone conversation, that I was going to be at the White House on Thursday.

And when he called me Wednesday night, he said --I was upset with him and so then he said, you know, "Don't be mad. Don't be mad." You know. "Are you coming tomorrow? "

And I said yea.

So he said, "Well, why don't you stop by Betty's office, stop by to see Betty and then maybe you can come see me for a few minutes before I leave." So --

QUESTION: Okay. All right. The reason I was asking that as a follow-up is that's sort of a prearranged semi-public occasion for the two of you to see each other.

A Right. I don't -- I don't know necessarily that I was going to go to the departure;
Q I see.

A But that was maybe kind of a cover story.

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QUESTION: I understand.

A Or I'm not -- I know he had a departure and I know

that I was going to see him for a few minutes before the

departure because I thought - - I remember thinking that I

might get to kiss him, so - -MR. EMMICK: All right,

A JUROR: Now to follow up on your follow-up of my question - -

MR. EMMICK: Yes.

A JUROR: Did you get to see him that day?

THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.

A JUROR: Okay. Could you tell us a little about that?

THE WITNESS: Sure. I -- the short of it is that I didn't end up seeing him because Evelyn Lieberman was hanging around and left with him that day.

A JUROR: She was someplace where she didn't belong.

THE WITNESS: Right. So Betty had -- I was waiting in the West Wing lobby with Billy, actually, after we had gone to look at the photos and Betty finally came out and it was really just as he was walking to the helicopter and she took me to see it, but she said that -- and it was at that, point when she sort of confirmed for me that Evelyn didn't like me. So -- that --

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A JUROR: The contacts with the President, on page 5, for the 18th of August --

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR. EMMICK: Page 5.

A JUROR: Okay. Page 5, 18th of August, it says "Public function, President's 50th birthday party, limited intimate contact."

A JUROR: I couldn't hear her.

MR. EMMICK: Okay. Let me repeat it. There is a reference on page 5 to August 18th of '96, a Sunday, "Public function, President's 50th birthday party, limited intimate contact. " -

Your question about that was?

THE WITNESS: What does that mean?

MR. EMMICK: What does that mean?

THE WITNESS: It's stupid. There was a cocktail reception for his - - he had this big 50th birthday party at Radio City Music Hall and there was a cocktail reception and at the -- when he came to do the rope line and he -- after he greeted me and talked to me, he was talking to a Whole bunch of people in and around my area and I had -- can I stand up and show you?

MR. EMMICK: Sure. Sure.

THE WITNESS: Okay. If this is the rope line and here are all the people and the President's standing here, as

1085

he started to talk to other people, I had my back to him and I just kind of put -- put my hand behind me and touched him. This -- so --

BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q Touched him in the crotch area?
A Yes.

A JUROR: I didn't hear that.

MS. IMMERGUT: Touched him in the crotch area.

A JUROR: Oh.

MS. IMMERGUT: And the response was yea.

A JUROR: Okay.

A JUROR: Did anybody see you?

THE WITNESS: What? No. What's the question?

A JUROR: Did anybody see you?

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: But there were people around.

THE WITNESS: There were, but it was -- he was talking -- everybody was enamored with him. I'm sure everybody saw from Monday that - - and he was talking to different people and he - - he was always very close to me when -- whenever he'd do these rope lines and would sort of make a point of talking to me around -- you know, with other -- while other people were there and he'd usually hold my hand - - you know, sort of shaking hands and just - - would continue to just touch me somewhere. I mean, not -- not

1086

intimately, not - -

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Right. Just to set the scene, are there a lot of people kind of bunched together at the time?

A Oh. they're -- they're -- I mean, if we -- if everybody in the room came and stood in this one small corner, that's -- I mean, that's how crowded it was. So it was - - and my -back was to him and he was - - he was holding onto my -- I think he was holding Onto one of my arms or something, I had a sleeveless dress on. So --

QUESTION: So it sounds to me like -- it's almost a situation where there are so many people that you can't really see that kind of --

A Exactly. And it wasn't -- it wasn't a -- it was --maybe sort of a grazing over of that area, but it wasn't --it wasn't how you might imagine it if someone described this, from a scene from a movie, it wasn't like that, but it was --you know. I don't even know if he remembers.- so --

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

A JUROR: So on this paper we have here with sexual relations, would that qualify as -- what, contact? Sexual contact? Because if I remember -- where's my paper --

- THE WITNESS: Let me look at the definition.

MR. EMMICK: Sure.

- A JUROR: Yes. Contact with -- number 1 --

1087

MR. EMMICK: Just to clarify, the witness is looking at Grand Jury Exhibit ML-6.

THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure, because I don't think it was to necessarily gratify him or arouse him.

A JUROR: What was it for?

THE WITNESS: It was just -- I thought it was funny and it was sort of a -- I don't know how to explain it.

A JUROR: Contact.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Would it be better described as perhaps affectionate or playful?

A Playful, I think. It was just - - playful, not something I'd ever thought I'd have to discuss publicly.

A JUROR: While we're on this, I wanted to like finish it up, but I had a couple of questions with regards to the definition,

THE WITNESS: Sure.

A JUROR: Because I want to be sure in my own mind. At the bottom it says - - it says "Contact means intentional touching, either directly or through clothing."

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: Out of all of the times you had intimate contact, were there times when the President would touch you either on the breasts or in the genital area directly to the skin or was it always through clothing?

1088

THE WITNESS: Directly to the skin. Both.

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: I have some questions about the 50th birthday. That's when you gave the President the yellow tie. Is that when you gave the President the yellow tie?

THE WITNESS: Mot on that date.

A JUROR: But just before that.

THE WITNESS: But before that. Correct.

A JUROR: When it shows on the chart here, it says "Some time before August 16. 1996."

THE WITNESS: Correct.

A JUROR: And that tie is the same tie that at the end of your appearance here we saw some evidence that the President has worn a number of times this summer.

- THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: There's been some press accounts about that tie, last night and today.

THE WITNESS: -Sure.

A JUROR: My question to you is have you authorized your attorneys or any other spokesperson through you to discuss that evidence?

THE WITNESS: Gosh. I don't think I've necessarily given a direct authorization.- -

A JUROR: Do you know that they have?

THE WITNESS: Do I know if they -- I -- I don't

1089

know if they necessarily directly have, I know there have been questions about it. I shouldn't say I know, I'm sure there have been questions about it, but there have been a lot of instances since the beginning of this thing that there's been information that's come out from places where I hadn't expected it and that includes my own - - the people on my team. So I can't -- I don't know.

A JUROR: So you don't know whether that

information is coming from people that you have discussed it with?

THE WITNESS: I think that there - - there probably might have been -- I really -- I -- I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there was confirmation or some of that information came from there.

So -- but I know that also -- I'm sure it was somewhat limited because with my agreement, we're not allowed to talk to the press. We're not supposed to. So -- without prior approval.

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: So I guess there's -- let me just rephrase it. It sounds like you wouldn't be surprised by it, but do you have any direct knowledge that it occurred? --

A I know that there have been calls about this tie and I know that -- that I don't think that we've been 100 percent silent about that. So -- I don't -- I mean -- I know

1090

that we didn't cause this story to come out or I don't believe that we did. So --

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, it says on the chart that you received a thank you note saying that the tie is really beautiful.

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. -

A JUROR: And that was in the President's -handwriting?

- THE WITNESS: It's a typed letter and then he hand signed the letter and then "The tie is really beautiful" is
handwritten. - -

A JUROR: Did you ever discuss the tie with him in person or was it just a note?

THE WITNESS: No, we discussed it a lot on the phone.

A JUROR: And did he like the tie?

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. - -

A JUROR: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: He called me the first day he wore

it. The first time he wore it. -

- A JUROR: All right. Thank you. - - -

A JUROR: I have another question.

THE WITNESS: Sure.

A JUROR: On the day you were here testifying, there was a report on the TV - -

1091

- THE WITNESS: Right.

A JUROR: The President in the Rose Garden wearing that tie. Did you see that?

THE WITNESS: That evening I did.

A JUROR: When you saw him with the tie, what did that say to you?

THE WITNESS: I understand you had to do what you had to do. That's what it meant to me, I had looked --because I had seen him wear this tie prior -- a few other occasions since January, I had looked the day before my testimony because I thought he's just the kind of person that's going to wear this tie to tug on my emotional strings one last time before I go into the grand jury and say this under oath. And he didn't.

And him wearing it the day I came to testify sort of having to know that I wasn't going to see it until the end of the day, to me was just kind of -- you know, hey, you had to do what you had to do. But --

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, not to make a big issue about the tie, but is this tie something - - one of the ties that perhaps the President really liked, is a favorite tie?

THE WITNESS: I think so because he wore it during the campaign. He wore it once -- sometimes even twice a week. So I think he liked it a lot.

1092

A JUROR: Do you think that he would remember that it's from you?. I mean, you know, I don't know, but do you think he would? - - -

THE WITNESS: Ties were a big issue with us and I used to bug him all the time on the phone, "Well, when are you going to wear one of my ties?" You know. Or he'd say, "Did you see - - " On one occasion, I remember specifically he said, 'Did you see I wore your tie the other day?" -

There's a pretty big correlation between the -times when he would wear one of my ties and we either spoke the night before or that night.

And I used to say to him that "I like it when you wear my ties because then I know I'm close to your heart." So -- literally and figuratively. - -

A JUROR: So you think he would know, - then, that that was your tie. -

- THE WITNESS: He should know.

A JUROR: Which brings to mind when the first appearance by Hal, when he came testify --

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: Can you tell me what your thoughts were when you saw the pictures of Nelvis wearing the first tie that you gave the President? - - -

THE WITNESS: Yes. Actually, you know what? I think my cup's leaking. I'm sorry.

1093

A JUROR: Do we have another cup up there? -

THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to know people's names in here?

MR, EMMICK: The answer to that is no.

THE WITNESS: Oh --

MR. EMMICK: I know it seems --

THE WITNESS: It's so awkward.

MR. EMMICK: It does seem awkward, but I think it's better if --

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: -- the record not have any

identifications.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: We didn't intentionally get you a dribble glass.

THE WITNESS: Oh, sure. At least it's water and not grape juice.

I had two very different thoughts. My first thought was "You jerk. You're trying to show me how little you care about me and how little this meant to you by giving it -- to show me that you gave it to someone else, it meant so little to you now."

And my second thought was that it was sort of some sort of message of some sorts. I don't know what. Because I could see the President kind of saying to Hal, you know, "Oh,

1094

why don't you -- " I could even see him spilling something on Nel on purpose and - - that morning and then sort of saying, "Oh, here, just wear this tie, " or something like that. I mean, that's -- it's -- he's funny that way. But I thought there was some sort of deliberateness to it.

I don't know that Nel knew that, that that was the tie I gave the President but -- I don't think it was a coincidence.

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Could one of your thoughts perhaps have been that maybe he just gave him a batch of ties to Nelvis? And maybe he didn't remember?

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: You really think he would have remembered that first tie?

THE WITNESS: I know he did. I mean, we -- we --that was -- I don't know if you all know this or not, but I worked in a men's necktie store when I was in college for four years and so that was my thing, that was part -- you know, my spending money, a lot of it came from working. And so I love ties. -

And I -- I mean. I can pick out -- you know, different designers and stuff. And so that was a big thing for me. And then -- and I liked to give him ties and I liked to see him wearing them.

1095

A JUROR: Do you know how much impact Nel had on what the President wore each day?

THE WITNESS: None. To my understanding. Nel was. My understanding is that Nel's strictly in the -- while he would go to the residence on occasions, that he was usually in the oval area.

MR. EMMICK: There's a question waiting for a bit here. Yes.

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, was it the President's nature to give his ties away?

THE WITNESS: Yes. I knew that -- I knew that he had given Nel ties, his ties in the past. But ties were such a big issue between the President and me that I really couldn't have imagined that he didn't -- that he didn't know.

A JUROR: Other people other than Nel as well, in terms of giving his ties away?

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

A JUROR: Okay. You just -- -

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of anyone else, but that doesn't mean there aren't.

A JUROR: Okay.
- THE WITNESS: Right.
A JUROR: But you did know about that.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
A JUROR: Do you happen to know whether the

1096

President had a valet to assist him in his dressing?

THE WITNESS: Assist him in his dressing, I don't know. I know that there's a valet.

A JUROR: Or like prepare -- Mr. President, this suit goes with this tie, kind of thing? - -

THE WITNESS: I don't know that necessarily. but I have seen -- I had seen evidence enough that he could wear my ties when he wanted to. You know. That if he wanted to, he could go pick it out, so I don't know what his getting

dressed routine is. -
- A JUROR: Okay. Thank you.
A JUROR: Okay. I have a question that's a bit on

the delicate side.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

A JUROR: But this is just something that I need to know.

THE WITNESS: Sure.

A JUROR: Did you and the President ever engage in sexual relations using cigars?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: Okay.

A JUROR: Okay. I'd like to change the subject now.

THE WITNESS: Thank you. Just once. Just once.

A JUROR: When you last testified, you told us that

1097

photographs that you saw of the President and First Lady when they were away that were romantic in nature upset you.

When you had an opportunity to speak with the President about those photographs or any film that was taken during these romantic moments, what did he say? Why they were - - because I'm just curious as to whether or not they were staged because of the legal things that were going on with the president at that time.

THE WITNESS: Right. I don't believe we discussed them. I know that that upset me and sort of put me in a bit of a contentious mood when I spoke with him on the 5th. I think it was the 5th of January of this year. And I may have said something in passing about them, but we didn't have a discussion about the pictures.

A JUROR: Okay. I was just wondering if there were - -

THE WITNESS: Sure. No. I wondered, too.

A JUROR: Did you think any conversations to him about his wife were inappropriate?

THE WITNESS: I don't know if inappropriate is the right word. I tried not to. I -- there were very few discussions and I tended to say things like, "Well, when you're alone," you know, "Call me when you're alone," kind of a thing or, you know, that was how we discussed sort of Mrs. Clinton maybe not being there, was, "Well, I'll be alone

1098

on this day. Shall I -- " I think we were careful -- or I was careful, I know I was,

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, I wondered if you ever had any trouble with the Secret Service in trying to be near the President .

THE WITNESS: No. The only time that I remember was when I went to see him on the last time in '96, I guess it was April 7th, Easter. And when John Muskett was outside and he said he was going to check with Evelyn if I could go in and then I don't remember exactly how it happened, but I sort of -- I don't remember the exact discussion, but it ended up he ended up not talking to Evelyn and I went in. So - -

A JUROR: I have a question about Linda Tripp.

THE WITNESS: Ugh. Sorry.

A JUROR: In your conversations with Ms. Tripp, was her opinion always that she must be truthful or was there a time where your impression was that she was going to provide you with cooperation as far as keeping the
secrecy? - - -

THE WITNESS: There are two areas of that, I guess. Linda always told me she would always protect me end she would never tell anybody and keep my secret, up until the Paula Jones case came about.

1099

And I had never had any reason to think that she would ever need to discuss this under oath because I was certainly always going to deny it end I couldn't even imagine a situation where that would really come up.

But there was a point in the period prior to my learning about her being subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case, most specifically, January 9th, when she led me to believe that she was not going to tell about my relationship and that she was going to be vague on the truth about Kathleen Willey and was just not going to really remember anything else and that was why I agreed to meet with her on Tuesday the 13th.

A JUROR: In your conversations with her as you -were making your move to move to New York and what have you, did you ever get the sense that she was fishing for offers of benefits or the protection of her job? You know, or where she was hoping that nothing Would affect her job or if there was something in it for her?

THE WITNESS: Yes and no. When you asked me the question, the first thing that comes to my mind was it may not be directly related to that.

- When the Kathleen Willey incident had come out in Newsweek, there was a period after it, Bob Bennett had referred to - - or had made that comment about Linda Tripp and she made some off-comment about if she loses her job she's going to write a tell-all book.

1100

- - And so I sort-of -- that was an instance where I felt I needed to assure her that that wasn't going to happen, she wasn't going to lose her job, and that -- I certainly tried to make assurances. I mean, I -- I promised -- I would have promised her the moon if I could deliver it.

And then also - - then when I spoke with her on the

9th, she talked about that she had spent some time in New

York during Christmas and that she - - that someone had

suggested to her that she get a job doing public relations in

New York. - -

And that seemed a little bit strange to me, in that that was exactly what I was in the process of doing, and that maybe that was what she thought, that somehow then -- you know, I think I told her, oh, I'd try to help her come to New York and try to help her that way, but I don't know that --that I ever said anything directly about who would help her.

A JUROR: Okay. Thank you.

- BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: I'd like to ask a clarifying follow-up because I wasn't sure I understood all of the sort of ins and outs, if you will, of when Linda was going to maintain the secret and when she was going to reveal it. It-sounded like prior to the time when Linda got a Paula Jones subpoena, your understanding-was-she was doing to keep the secret.

A Correct.

1101

QUESTION: And then after she got the Paula Jones subpoena, then she told you that she was going to disclose things and tell the truth. Is that right?

A Yes. Yes.

QUESTION: Okay. And then in this conversation on January 9th. she indicated some willingness to consider keeping the secret a bit longer.

A No, considered that she was going to do that.

QUESTION: That she was going to. All right. That's what I wanted to clarify.

A Sure.

MR. EMMICK: Thank you.

A JUROR: When you said that in your conversations with Linda Tripp you kind of had to exaggerate some things about the President to her, you exaggerated on some of the things you said to her about the President - -

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure about that. I -- I don't know if exaggerate is the right -- is maybe the word I would choose.

A JUROR: Okay.

THE WITNESS: But go on. I'm sorry.

A JUROR: Well, no, I just used that word.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

A JUROR: Exaggerate. You didn't use it, but I couldn't think of the exact words you used.

___ 1102

THE WITNESS: Sure.

A JUROR: But were you -- why do you think that you had to not tell her some things that din actually happen, true things, in talking to her?

THE WITNESS: That really came about in relation to the Paula Jones case. I think that I was -- there were some occasions, one in particular that I remember, when I didn't disclose a contact that I had with the President -- I'm sorry, here -- I'll scoot over -- contact that I had with the President to her for some reasons, but after the Paula Jones case, I was scared to death. I mean, I was panicked that she was going to tell.

So, I mean, I -- I -- you know, along the lines of, you know, some of the things I said about Mr. Jordan, I said, you know, "Oh, the President told me I have to lie," I don't even remember everything I said, but I know that there were certainly lies at that point, not even exaggerations.

MR. EMMICK: Actually, I was going to ask that clarifying follow-up to that.

THE FOREPERSON: And then after that, we have to take a break.

MR. EMMICK: And then we'll take a break. BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: The clarifying follow-up was that I had understood that during that January period when you were talking to

1103 -

Linda Tripp you were lying to her on occasion, but I wasn't clear whether those lies related to times that you had been with the President or whether they related to other things generally. Do you understand what my question is?

A No.

QUESTION: What were the nature of the lies that you were telling to Linda Tripp during that January period?

A Oh. gosh. They went from - - I guess a non-disclosure of my meeting with him on the 28th, nor my phone call with him on the 5th of January, to -- ranging to things that he said I had to do or told me to do.

I haven't -- I haven't seen transcripts of those days, - thank goodness, but I just know that I was -- I was scared to death. And I thought any influence that anybody would have, my mother, Mr. Jordan. the President, anybody, would -- I used.

MR. EMMICK: All right.

THE FOREPERSON: It's break time.

MR. EMMICK: Break time.

THE FOREPERSON: It's break time. It's break time.

A JUROR: I have a follow-up to that as well.

THE FOREPERSON: Okay. So we're going to take ten minutes .

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE FOREPERSON: And we'll come back.

1104

A JUROR: I hope I remember my question.

THE WITNESS: Can you guys call me Monica?

Are they allowed to call me Monica instead of Ms. Lewinsky? I was just --

THE FOREPERSON: If you say so.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Sure.

THE WITNESS: I'm just 25. Please.

A JUROR: But you'll always be Ms. Lewinsky, whether you're 25 or 28 or --

THE WITNESS: Not if I get married.

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.)

THE FOREPERSON: Monica, I'd like to remind that you are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MR. EMMICK: We have a quorum and there are no unauthorized persons present. Is that right?

THE FOREPERSON: You are absolutely correct.

MR. EMMICK: Lucky this time.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MR. EMMICK: Did you want to ask some follow-up questions?

MS. IMMERGUT: Yes.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

QUESTION: Ms. Lewinsky, there are two things I wanted to

1105

clarify. First, with respect to the tie disclosure issue --
A Yes.

QUESTION: -- you were asked about before, I believe you mentioned -something to the effect that there have been things that have come out of your team that you were surprised about before. Are -you referring to your current legal team?

A -No. My first legal team.

QUESTION: Okay. And that's Mr. Ginsberg?

A Yes.

QUESTION: Okay. You're not aware of any unauthorized disclosures from your current camp?

A No. Nor have I authorized any disclosures.

QUESTION: Okay. So you didn't authorize a disclosure about the tie.

A No.

QUESTION: With respect to - - to switch gears - - to what we were speaking about-right before the break about the things that you said to Linda Tripp at the very end, particularly on January 13, 1998, I believe --

A Yes.

QUESTION: You mentioned that an example of things that you were not truthful about was, for example, the fact you had seen the President on December 28th and that you had spoken to him on January 5th. Is that correct?

A Right. Yes. And I didn't disclose that to her.

1106

QUESTION: Right. You did not disclose that to her.

A Quite to the contrary.

QUESTION: Okay. In fact, you told her that you hadn't seen or spoken to the President for two months.
A Or since the 17th of December.
Q Okay.
A Exactly.
Q You mentioned that there was - - you also said

things about what the President had said to you to Ms. Tripp that were not true on January 13th. Do you remember any specific things that you said that the President had told you that in fact were not true?

A No. I don't remember any specifics, I just wanted to leave open the possibility. Does that clarify it?

MR. EMMICK: On the right here?

A JUROR: Monica. why did you keep that black dress?

A JUROR: Blue.

A JUROR: Blue dress.

A JUROR: Did you have a reason to keep it?

THE WITNESS: Pardon?

A JUROR: The blue dress.

THE WITNESS: No. I didn't have a reason. The --reason -- the dress -- I didn't realize -- if I remember
- 1107

correctly, I didn't really realize that there was anything on. it until I went to go wear it again and I had gained too much weight that I couldn't fit into it.

And it seemed sort of funny and I - - it may sound silly, I have a lot of clothes. I don't clean all my clothes right after I wear them, I usually don't clean them until I know I'm going to wear them again. And then I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving because I had lost weight and I had -- I had shown the dress to Linda at that point and had just sort of said to her, "Well, isn't this -- " You know, "Isn't this stupid?" Or. you know, "Look at this, isn't this gross?" Or whatever. I don't really remember exactly what I said,

And she told me that I should put it in a safe deposit box because it could be evidence one day.

And I said that was ludicrous because I would never -- I would never disclose that I had a relationship with the President, I would never need it.

And then when Thanksgiving time came around and I told her that I was going to wear it -for Thanksgiving, she

-told me I looked fat-in the dress, I shouldn't wear it. She brought me a-jacket from her closet as to try to persuade me not -to wear the dress.

So I ended up not wearing it and then I was going to clean it. - I took it with me up to New York and was going

1108

to clean it up there and then this broke, so --

- A JUROR: Okay. Your relationship with the president, did your mother at any time try to discourage the relationship?

THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. -

A JUROR: Well, what kept it going? I mean, what kept it - - you keeping it active or whatever? -

THE WITNESS: I fell in love.

- A JUROR: I beg your pardon? I couldn't hear you.

- THE WITNESS: I fell in love.

A JUROR: When you look at it now, was it love or a sexual obsession? - -

THE WITNESS: More love with a little hit of obsession. But definitely love.

A JUROR: Did you think that the President was in love with you also?

- THE WITNESS: There was an occasion-when I left the -White House and I was pretty stunned at how I felt because I did think that.

A JUNOR: You did? -

BY MR. EMMICK:
Q 00 you remember the date?
A It was July 4, 199?.

A JUNOR: Were you aware that he was having problems in his marriage? Did this ever spill over in the

1109

times that you were together? Did you get a feeling that something was not right, that --

THE WITNESS:

A JUROR:

THE WITNESS:

A JUROR:

THE WITNESS:

A JUROR:

THE WITNESS:

A JUROR:

MR. EMMICK: I thought there was a question in the front here.

A JUROR: And today, Monica, do you still love the president?

THE WITNESS: Before Monday, I would have said yea.

- - 1110 __________

A JUNOR: So then it is no?

THE WITNESS: I don't know how I feel right now.

MR. EMMICK: A question in the front?

A JUROR: I guess I would like to know what happened Monday to make you just by Thursday change your mind so completely.

THE WITNESS: I don't think it's so much changed my mind. I think -- it's -- it was very painful for me to watch his speech on Monday night. I -- it's -- it's hard for me to feel that he has characterized this relationship as a service contract and that that was never something that I ever thought it was. And --

A JUROR: I'm sorry, you lost me already.

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's -- from my understanding about what he testified to on Monday, not --just from the press accounts, is that this was a -- that this was a service contract, that all I did was perform oral sex -on him and that that's all that this relationship was. And it was a lot more than that to me and I thought it was a lot more than that.

And I think I felt -- I was hurt that -- that he didn't even -- sort of acknowledge me in his remarks. And even also -- I mean, that has to do with directly with me, but I thought he should have acknowledged all the other people that have gone through a lot of pain for seven months.

1111

I feel very responsible for a lot of what's happened, you know, in the seven months, hut I tried -- I tried very hard to do what I could to not -- to not hurt him. I'm still not answering your question.

A JUROR: Well, let's -- you said the relationship was more than oral sex. I mean, it wasn't like you went out on dates or anything like that like normal people, so what more was it?

THE WITNESS: Oh, we spent hours on the phone talking. It was emotional.

A JUROR: Phone sex?

THE WITNESS: Not always. On a few occasions. I mean, we were talking. I mean, interacting. I mean, talking about what we were thinking and feeling and doing and laughing.

We were very affectionate, even when -- after he broke the relationship off in May, I mean, when I'd go to visit with him, we'd -- you know, we'd hug each other a lot. You know, he always used to like to stroke my hair. He --we'd hold hands. We'd smile a lot. We discussed a variety -- you know, a wide range of things.

So, I mean, it was - - there was a real component of

a relationship to it and I just -- I thought he had a

beautiful soul. I just thought he was just this incredible

person and when I looked at him I saw a little boy and -- I

1112

don't know what the truth is any more. -

And that's, I think, what I took away on Monday, was that I didn't know what the truth was. And so how could I know the truth of my love for someone if it was based on him being an actor. -

A JUNOR: I'd like to ask you about Bayani Nelvis.

- THE WITNESS: Okay.

A JUROR: How much about your relationship with the President did Bayani Nelvis know?

THE WITNESS: I think he knew that -- that we were friends and that I would come to see the President and I gave him things. I don't know -- I don't remember ever getting into any specific details. Might he have thought that from - - you know, from how much I kind of liked the President? I'm not sure.

- But -- and I don't mean this in a racist way, you know, Nel's from another country and so his English is --while his English is good, it's not perfect, not that anyone's is perfect, so I think that sometimes there was a little hit of a language barrier there, too, so I think he --you know, Nel was just a -- is a really nice guy. He's a sweet guy and he -- he's very loyal to the President.

A JUROR: Did you ever tell him at any time that you loved the President?

THE WITNESS: I don't think so, but I might have,

1113

but I don't think so.

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Yes? A question?

A JUROR: You just mentioned real components. the relationship was -- like a real component, you mentioned things like truth. But sometimes I go back and forth not understanding because you yourself were living a lot of secrets, a lot of lies, a lot of paranoia, but yet you wanted truth, a real component?

I'm not understanding these two different things because one time you're sentimental but then again you do just the opposite of what you say you're thinking.

Did you ever think that nothing real could come of this relationship?

THE WITNESS: Did I ever thing nothing real --

A JUROR: Anything real, that anything real could - - and truthful and honest could have come from this relationship?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: With this married man?

THE WITNESS: I did.

A JUROR: But I have a question for you about that.

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

A JUNOR: It's been reported in the papers that you had a relationship before similar to this, where a lot of

/ 1114
/

hurt and pain came out of this, you know, a lot of hurt and pain toward a family.

And then you turn around and you do it again. You're young. you're vibrant, I can't figure out why you keep going after things that aren't free, that aren't obtainable.

THE WITNESS: Well, there's sort of two parts to that and just to clarify, the -- the way Andy and Kate Bleiler portrayed everything on TV and through their lawyer was pretty inaccurate, so I don't know how much of that is part of your question.

A JUROR: The only part I know is that he was a married man with a wife and a family. -

THE WITNESS: That's true.

A JUROR: Like I know shout the president.

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: He was a married man and it wasn't no secret of that fact. But yet you want to talk about truth, a real component, honesty. It all seems so -- like a fantasy. That's why I asked you earlier shout obsession.

THE WITNESS: That's a hard question to answer because obviously there's -- there's work that I need to do on myself. There are obviously issues that -- that -- you know, a single young woman doesn't have an affair with a married man because she's normal, quote-unquote. But I think most people have issues and that's just how mine manifested

1115

themselves.

It's something I need to work on and I don't think it's right, it's -not right to have an affair with a married man. I never expected to fall in love with the President. was surprised that I did. -

And I didn't -- my intention had really been to come to Washington and start over and I didn't want to have another affair with a married man because it was really painful. It was horrible. And I feel even worse about it now.

A JUROR: Monica, I'd like to change the topic, if I can.

THE WITNESS: Did I answer --

A JUROR: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

A JUROR: And I also -- I want to let you know that we're not here to judge you in any way, I think many of us feel that way.

THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. But I understand that every -- you know, this is -- this is a topic that --there are a lot of people think it's wrong and I think it's wrong, too. I understand that.

A JUROR: I had to ask that you -question because I've had to ask other questions and it wouldn't have been right for me not to ask you the question - -

1116

THE WITNESS: Sure.

A JUROR: -- that I've had to ask --

THE WITNESS: I think it's fair and I think you should -- I think it's a fair question. It's a hard one to answer. No one likes to have their weaknesses splayed out for the entire world, you know, but I understand that. And I'd rather you understand where I'm coming from, you know, and you'd probably have to know me better and know my whole journey to how I got here from birth to now to really understand it. I don't even understand it. But -- I understand. I respect your having to ask that question and I appreciate what you're saying, whatever your name is.

A JUROR: We're here only to assess the credibility of your testimony.

THE WITNESS: Sure. But I -- I can see how that would be a factor.

A JUROR: I wanted to go back to the issue of ties. It's my understanding that you testified earlier this morning that your agreement, your immunity agreement, with the Office of the Independent Counsel includes an understanding that you - - that you and your legal team need prior approval to disseminate information to the press.

THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: And in looking over Exhibit ML-2, I don't see that provision. Can you look at that? -

1117

THE WITNESS: Is that my agreement?

A JUROR: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Sure.

MR. EMMICK: Sure.

THE WITNESS: I know that portion of it very well.

A JUROR: I may be missing something.

THE WITNESS: There have been many times I've wanted to defend myself and the lies that have been spewed out.

MR. EMMICK: I think the reference is to part 1B.

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Where it says 'Will not make any statements -- " "Neither Ms. Lewinsky nor her agents will make any statements about this matter to witnesses, subjects. or targets of the OIC's investigation or their agents or to representatives of the news media without first obtaining the
OIC's approval.' .

A JUROR: Okay. - Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Sure.

MR. EMMICK: Other questions? Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: I'd also like to return for a minute --if you have that package out - - to something that was discussed this morning, earlier this morning, and that refers to your proffer. Do you have a copy of the proffer? The proffer?

1118

MR. EMMICK: We do. Sure.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: I'm placing Exhibit ML-1 before the witness.

TNE WITNESS: Thank you.

A JUROR: Monica, if you-could look at paragraph 11, I'm not sure what page it is, but it's paragraph 11.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes. Okay.

A JUROR: As I understood our discussion this morning, you said that you offered to deny the relationship and the President didn't discourage you, but said something like "That's good."

As I read your proffer here, it says "The President told Ms. L to deny a relationship if-ever asked. " And that seems to me slightly different.

THE WITNESS: I forgot this. So that's true.

- A JUROR: Is -this proffer statement correct, that he did tell you to deny a relationship?

THE WITNESS: Yes. I don't -- I don't -- when I answered the question earlier, that was what first came to my mind. But, I mean, I know that this is true.

I just at that point --- and I -- really reading it, I know it's -true because I was truthful in my proffer, but sitting here right now, I can't remember exactly when it was, but it was something-that was -certainly discussed between us.

1119

A JUROR: And what about the next sentence also? Something to the effect that if two people who are involved say it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Do you recall him saying that to you?

THE WITNESS: Sitting here today, very vaguely. can hear -- I have a weird -- I'll explain to you guys that I have a weird sense of -- for me, my saying I remember something, if I can see it in my mind's eye or I can hear him saying it to me, then I feel pretty comfortable saying that that's pretty accurate, that I remember that. And I can hear his voice saying that to me, I just can't place it.

A JUROR: Is it --

THE WITNESS: And this was -- I mean, this was early -- this was all throughout our relationship. I mean, it was - - obviously not something that we discussed too often, I think, because it was -- it's a somewhat unpleasant thought of having to deny it, having it even come to that point, but --

A JUROR: Is it possible that you also had these discussions after you learned that you were a witness in the Paula Jones case?

THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. No.

A JUROR: Can you exclude that possibility?

TNE WITNESS: I pretty much can. I really don't remember it. I mean, it would be very surprising to me to be
1120

confronted with something that would show me different, but I -- it was 2:30 in the -- I mean, the conversation I'm thinking of mainly would have been December 17th, which was - -

A JUROR: The telephone call.

THE WITNESS: Right. And it was -- you know, 2:00, 2:30 in the morning. I remember the gist of it and I -- I really don't think so.

A JUROR: Thank you.

A JUROR: I have some questions about the Paula Jones lawsuit. Going back to the period before you even had any idea that you might be a witness in that, did you follow the Paula Jones lawsuit fairly closely?

THE WITNESS: I followed it. I don't know "fairly closely, but - - I think it maybe depended more on was there something in the paper and that happened to be a day that I eat and read all the papers because I had nothing to do.

I did follow it. but I wasn't -- I didn't follow it as much as I follow this case. I mean, in terms of -- no, but I mean, I'm just saying as a gauge, you know.

A JUROR: So you were holding down a full-time job and everything at that time, but you did read the papers - -

THE WITNESS: I did read the papers every day and it was -- sure, I followed it. I didn't know the ins and outs of it, but I followed it.

1121

A JUROR: Did you -- in that period again, even before anyone knew that you would be a witness, did you discuss that with the President? Was he aware that you followed it? Was that something --

THE WITNESS: No. Really, the time that I remember we discussed it was on the 17th.

A JUROR: December 17th?

THE WITNESS: And when I told him my sort of stupid idea for how he should settle it. So that was -- but, no. He wasn't -- we didn't -- I -- and I think in general just to give you guys a flavor, because there have been different subjects that have come up, when we spent time together, I know I certainly made an effort -- unless I was angry with him about something, that there were topics that I wanted to stay away from and the time that I spent with him was precious to me. So things that were unpleasant I didn't bring up unless I had to.

A JUROR: Exactly what date again did you get your subpoena to be a witness?

THE WITNESS: The 19th of December.

A JUROR: The 19th? Okay. Now, when -- and if you could retell for me the conversation you had with the President about the gifts.

THE WITNESS: Okay. It was December 28th and I was there to get my Christmas gifts from him. Excuse me. I'm

1122

sorry And we spent maybe about five minutes or so, not very long, talking about the case. And I said to him, "Well, do you think - - "

What I mentioned - - I said to him that it had really alarmed me about the hat pin being in the subpoena and I think he said something like. "Oh, " you know, "that sort of bothered me, too. That bothered me," you know, "That bothers me." Something like that.

And at one point, I said, "Well, do you think I should--- " I don't think I said "get rid of," I said, "But do you think I should put away or maybe give to Betty or give to someone the gifts?"

- And he -- I don't remember his response. I think it was something like, "I don't know, " or "Hem" or -- there really-was no response.

I know that I didn't leave the White House with any notion of what I should do with them, that I should do anything different than that they were sitting in my house. And then later I got the call from Betty.

- A JUROR: Now, did you bring up Betty's name or did the President bring up Betty's name?

THE WITNESS: I think I brought it up. The President wouldn't have brought up Betty's name because he really didn't -- he didn't really discuss it, so either I brought up Betty's name, which I think is probably what

1123

happened, because I remember not being too, too shocked when Betty called.

Somewhat surprised, I guess, that he hadn't said --you know, it would have seemed easier to sort of have said something maybe then, but I wasn't too surprised when she called.

A JUROR: Thank you.

MR. EMMICK: I think there was a question in the front. Did you have a question?

MS. IMMERGUT: Did you have a question?

A JUROR: Yes. Back to the contacts?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: On page 7, on the 29th of March --

THE WITNESS: On the -- sorry, what date?

A JUROR: The 29th of March. Sunday.

MR. EMMICK: Then 29th of March.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

A JUROR: "Private encounter, approximately 1:30 or 2:00 p.m., study. President on crutches. Physical intimacy including oral sex to completion and brief direct genital contact. " Brief direct genital contact, could you just elaborate on that a bit?

THE WITNESS: Uh --

A JUROR: I understand --

THE WITNESS: Oh, my gosh. This is so

1124

embarrassing.

A JUROR: You could close your eyes and talk.

A JUROR: We won't look at you.

THE WITNESS: Can I hide under the table? Uh -- I had -- I had wanted -- I tried to -- I placed his genital next to mine and had hoped that if he -- oh -- this is just too embarrassing. I don't --

A JUROR: Did you think it would lead to

intercourse?

THE WITNESS: Not on that day.

A JUROR: Was that sort of the reason for doing the gesture - -

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: -- or trying to -- moving his closer to yours? -

THE WITNESS: Then I -- not that we would have intercourse that day, but that that might make him want to.

A JUROR: Okay. Were you wearing clothes at the time or underwear at the time?

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: And was he? Or his were pulled down?

THE WITNESS: Correct.

A JUROR: So was there direct skin-to-skin contact between .your genitals and his?

THE WITNESS: I think very briefly. It was --

1125

he -- he's really tall and he couldn't really bend because of his knee, so it was --

A JUROR: It was more of a grazing?

THE WITNESS: Yes. -

A JUROR: About how many encounters did you have in the study? If you can recall.

MR. EMMICK: What do you mean by "encounters"?

A JUROR: Sexual encounters. I'm sorry.

THE WITNESS: Do you include kissing or not?

A JUROR: No kissing. According to the definition.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Two.

A JUROR: Okay. Thank you.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

QUESTION: And why don't you give us the dates of those. A The -- well, let me look. The 29th of March and

the 28th of February. There might have been - - I mean, in terms of the clothes and stuff, there might have been playful touches here and there, but not - - nothing that I would have considered sexual encounters.

QUESTION: And that's not listed as an intimate encounter?

A No. No, it's not. No, it's not,

QUESTION: And just to clarify again, are those the two times that the President actually came to completion during the oral max?

A Yes.

1126

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: And I'm actually obliged to ask one follow up that I don't think will be too bad, but directing your attention to August 16th, did you attempt to touch the President on that day?

A Yes.

QUESTION: And did you actually touch him? In his groin area?

A Over his clothes.

QUESTION: Over his clothes. And did he say that's not -- "We can't do that"?
A Yes.

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

A JUROR: Did you feel any rejection the times that he wouldn't go all the way with you?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: Monica, I had one question to go back to the gifts. You had said that the President had called you initially to come get your Christmas gift, you had gone there, you had a talk, et cetera, and there was no -- you expressed concern, the President really didn't say anything. Mow much later in the afternoon did you get a call from Betty? It was that same day, is that correct?

THE WITNESS: Yes, - that's correct. Let me just clarify real quickly that I had made the arrangements to go there on Sunday through Betty, just that you had said he

1127

called me.

A JUROR: So you had initiated the contact on that day?

THE WITNESS: He had -- he had told me on the 17th that he - - you know, he still had these Christmas gifts for me and then - - just shortly after Christmas and I called Betty and said, you know, "He said he had something for me, "something like that, you know. And then she arranged it. So I just wanted to clarify.

A JUROR: And then how much of a time gap - -

THE WITNESS: A few hours, maybe.

A JUROR: A few hours?

THE WITNESS: Maybe -- I think it was around 2:00 p.m. or so, around 2:00 in the afternoon, and I had gone there at 8:30 in the morning and left -- I'd say maybe four or five hours time span.

A JUROR: So what exactly happened? You went home and you packaged these gifts? Or had you already had them packaged?

THE WITNESS: No. I went home and I -- I think I went to New York that evening, possibly, so I was getting ready to go to New York, I think, or something.

But when Betty called, then she said, you know, "I understand you have something to give me." It was very vague. And I understood -- I mean, to me, that meant from

1128

this conversation that we had had that I should sort of - -you know, give some of the gifts.

So I put them all out on my bed and -- it's sort of been difficult to kind of explain why I put some things in and why I didn't put others in.

The things that seemed to be directly called for in the subpoena, I put in a box: the hat pin, the dress from Martha's Vineyard, some of the pictures and things, the ad to him from Valentine's Day. Not that that was directly called for, but some of the more intimate - - I guess personal things, except that I kept the "Leaves of Grass' book because that just -- I was worried, I didn't know if I would get the gifts back or not, ever, and so I -- that just -- that meant the most to me of anything he gave me.

A JUROR: And I believe your testimony last time was that you did not believe that Betty knew the contents of the package?

THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.

A JUROR: She just came and picked them up and that was it?

THE WITNESS: We chit-chatted for a little bit. She was on the way to see her mom in the hospital, so I got her a small plant to just take to her mom and --

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

QUESTION: Did she seem at all confused when you handed over

1129

the box?
A No.

QUESTION: Did she ask you what was in it?

A No. Not that I remember. I don't believe so.

MS. IMMERGUT: Thank you.

A JUROR: And just to back up for a second on your conversation with the President that you already discussed a little bit where you said you were concerned about the subpoena and some of the items that it called for such as the hat pin which indeed the President had given you, you testified previously, I believe, that the President said he was concerned about that also when he saw the hat pin. Is that correct?

THE WITNESS: I don't know that he saw -- I don't know that he saw the hat pin on the -- I don't know that he saw the subpoena, so -- I know that the hat pin was a concern to him.

A JUROR: Okay. Do you remember what he said in response when you said you were concerned about the things called for in the subpoena?

THE WITNESS: I think he said something like "That concerned me, too."

A JUROR: Okay.

THE WITNESS: So I don't know if he saw it or someone -- you know, I don't know he learned that.

1130

A JUROR: Okay. But he appeared to have some prior knowledge of - -

THE WITNESS: I think so. I think so.

A JUROR: I have another question about that conversation on the 28th. You had already discussed with him earlier the subpoena and the fact that all of your gifts from him were under subpoena and then - -

THE WITNESS: We hadn't discussed that. I wasn't -- I hadn't -- the 28th was the first time that I saw him or spoke to him since I had been subpoenaed. When he called me on the 17th, I wasn't yet subpoenaed.

A JUROR: Okay. Okay. So that conversation took place on the 28th?

- THE WITNESS: Correct. The only conversation about gifts and the subpoena, really -- yes.

A JUROR: And on that same day, he gave you Christmas gifts.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: What was your thinking at that time about that? Did that concern you or - -

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: - No?

THE WITNESS: I was --

A JUROR: Did you -- what did you plan to do with those gifts? Did it cross your mind that some - - that you

1131

should maybe give some of them to your attorney as responsive to the subpoena or - -

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: No?

MR. EMMICK: I have a quick clarifying question because you said that the only conversation you had with him about gifts after the subpoena was on the 28th. You also had a conversation with him on the 5th that related to the later gift of the book, if I remember it right.

THE WITNESS: Right. I meant my gifts that he gave to me.

MR. EMMICK: Right. Right. Right. I just wanted to clarify that.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Sure.

MR. EMMICK: Other questions?

A JUROR: Going back to your conversation with Linda Tripp - -

MR. EMMICK: Which one?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Which tape are you referring to?

A JUROR: NO, I'm just going to be general.

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

A JUROR: If you had to put it like percentage-wise, what you told her as being truthful and not truthful, what percentage will be not truthful?

1132

THE WITNESS: I would say before the subpoena, before I found out she had been subpoenaed, so for argument's sake maybe saying before December of '97, I'd say 95 percent accurate. There were some things that I didn't tell her, but I usually pretty much told her everything.

A JUROR: You started talking to her when? In '95 or '96?

THE WITNESS: I first told her -- when I first told her about the relationship or when I started talking to her as a person?

A JUROR: The relationship.

THE WITNESS: The relationship, I told her in November of '96. After the election.

A JUROR: Okay. So from November '96 to December '97 --

THE WITNESS: Pretty truthful.

A JUROR: And then after '97?

THE WITNESS: Oh --

BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: Could I ask just one clarifying matter about that answer? Because you had said that it was 95 percent accurate and then you also said because sometimes I didn't tell her everything. And I just want to make sure we're being clear on whether you're talking about being complete or being accurate.

1133

- In other words, are you not telling her things or are you saying things to her that are inaccurate, sort of in that 5 percent, if you will? -

A Well, I don't remember the exact situations or the times that I didn't tell her something, if she had asked me about it, I would have been inaccurate about what I said.

QUESTION: All right. I see.

A So--

QUESTION: So there's kind of a blending of those two concepts.

A Correct.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

QUESTION: And, again, to clarify, -did you ever lie about your sexual relationship with the President?

A No.

MR. EMMICK: - I'm sorry. I interrupted. I didn't mean to.

- A JUROR: So after '97, then --

THE WITNESS: -After December '97, I don't even know how to -- how to put a percentage to that.

A JUROR: Any truth at all after '97?

- THE WITNESS: Yes. There were some truths in December of '97. There certainly were some true statements, but there were a lot of untrue statements. Probably the untrue statements stick out in my mind-more because they

1134

caused so much trouble. -

A JUROR: Which ones stick out in your mind as having been untruthful?

THE WITNESS: Stuff about my mom. Just -- a lot o different things about my mom. That I had -- that I told Mr. Jordan I wouldn't sign the affidavit until I got a job. That was definitely a lie, based on something Linda had made me promise her on January 9th. Some of the other, things --

- A JUROR: Did you tell Linda Tripp at any time that you had heard or understood that people don't go to jail for perjury in a civil case? -

THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe -- I think I said that. -

A JUROR: Did anybody tell you that?

THE WITNESS: Well, hmm.

A JUROR: Do you want to talk to -- I know there's -- is there an attorney issue there?

THE WITNESS: There's an attorney issue.

- A JUROR: I see.

MR. EMMICK: Do you want to take a break and talk

about the attorney issue? Because I think that may be a

way to figure out if we can answer that question any more
fully. - . -
THE WITNESS: Do you want me to go talk to my -
attorney? - -

1135

MR. EMMICK: Well, I just think it might be -- I think your attorney would like it if he were to talk to you.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

- MR. EMMICK That's the way to answer it.

THE WITNESS: Okay. So just to be clear, you're

A JUROR: Well, maybe I can help. Just -- if I could confine it to did anyone other than your attorney ever suggest to you that perjury in a civil case would not be prosecuted?

THE WITNESS: Uh --

MS. IMMERGUT: If you-need to talk to your attorney, go ahead. -

A JUROR: I just thought - - did anyone other than your attorney tell you that?

THE WITNESS: No.

MR. EMMICK: I think it still would be advisable to have a more complete answer, to at least let them talk.

THE WITNESS: Okay. -

MR. EMMICK: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Excuse me.

(The witness was excused to confer with counsel.)

MR. EMMICK: Do we have a quorum?

THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. -

MR. EMMICK: And are there any unauthorized persons

1136

THE FOREPERSON: Not a one. -

-MR. EMMICK: All right.
THE WITNESS: And I'm still under oath.
THE FOREPERSON: Yes, you are.
- BY MS. IMMERGUT:
- Q And just to clarify a couple of things that were

right before the break, when you sort of asserted a privilege or had some questions about whether there was a privilege, I did want to ask you just to clarify that with respect to the statement about your lawyer having - - or somebody telling you whether or not you can be charged with perjury in a civil

case, just to be clear, did Mr. Jordan ever tell you that?
\ A. No. - -

O Did Mr. Carter ever tell you that?

A No. -

QUESTION: - And otherwise, I think the question was was it -

another attorney and I believe that you would like to assert the attorney-client privilege.

A JUROR: No, I think I excluded attorneys from my question.

- - THE WITNESS: Okay. You know, can I just

address -- Think sort of the -- one of the questions that

you had asked me before and I just - - about - -

- - A JUROR: Myself?

THE WITNESS: Yes. That you had asked me about the

1137

relationship and being untruthful and things like that. And I just -- this is something that's sort of been on my mind since this whole thing started.

I have never -- I don't -- I certainly believe I have ever told a lie to hurt anybody, that I sort of -- some of the ways in which I grew up, it was -- there were secrets and inherent in a secret is a lie and so I just -- you know, I -- I just thought I'd tell you that. -

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Other questions?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, we're going to try, because we feel -that we have been jumping around and you've done a very good job of sort of jumping from topic to topic, we're going to try to bunch our questions together around a few topics and our forelady is going to try to play traffic cop, so - -

A JUROR: A little bit. - No, you go ahead. This -is your record. But I'll play traffic-cop just a little.

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, before you go into that, I just remember you saying something with Linda Tripp, you know, -what was not the truth, okay? And I just remembered, was one of the things that you told her, that you gave your mother the blue dress, one of the untruths or was that true?

THE WITNESS: I don't know if I ever told Linda I gave my mom the blue dress. One of the things I did say was

1138

that I gave everything to my mom, so that probably included that and that was not true. I didn't give the evidence to my mom. My mom never hid the dress. She didn't know it was in New York.
- A JUROR: Okay. - - -

THE WITNESS: So she didn't know anything about it.

- -A JUROR: I've got one of those questions that goes along with what she just said.

A JUROR: Okay. Fine. That's that idea. That

topic. - \ -

- A JUROR: How much did your mom really know? THE WITNESS: She knew -- she knew that I was

having a relationship with the President. She knew that --she knew that I was certainly emotional about it and that it made me miserable a lot and that sometimes I was elated and sometimes I was miserable, but I didn't -- you know, I -- I might have said something to her like, "We fooled around," but I -- not -- she didn't know as much as I led Linda to believe she knew. Is that - - -

A JUROR: Yes.
-THE WITNESS: Okay. - - -

- A JUROR: Okay. Any other Linda Tripp questions?

- A JUROR: - Yes, there's one.

A JUROR: Did you ever suggest to Linda Tripp -that she delete a-mails or anything like that from her

1139

computer?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

A JUROR: And did you tell her that you had done the same thing?

- - THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so.

A JUROR: And did anyone ever suggest to you or tell you that you should do that?

THE WITNESS: No.

A JUROR: -Did you tell Linda Tripp that anyone had suggested that to you?

THE WITNESS: I don't think so. -

A JUROR: - Okay. Thank you.

A JUROR: Any others? -

A JUROR: In that-end of that year timeframe, did you ever tell Linda Tripp that you felt physically at risk?

THE WITNESS: I think so. I think r told her something about - - that - - that - - I said something about Mary Jo what's- her-name.

A JUROR: Kopechne.

THE WITNESS: Kopechne. And so -- I really didn't feel- threatened, but I was trying to use anything I could to try to convince her not to tell. So that I thought that if she thought I was threatened and that was part of the reason, then she would maybe do the same.

1140

A JUROR: So you did not at any time feel -that your personal security was at risk from that White House or anyone in the White House?

THE WITNESS: No. I think that maybe there --there -- maybe once or twice it had crossed my mind in some bizarre way because everybody's heard about the different --you know, sure, there's the Marilyn Monroe theory. And so it -- but it was not -- it was not any factor of -- that related to my actions.

A JUROR: So any discussion that you had about the whole topic with Linda Tripp would fall into what you were describing before as a little bit of fabrication?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.

- BY MR. EMMICK:

QUESTION: If I could ask a follow-up on that, did your mother ever express any concerns about your safety?

-A I think she might have, but it was sort of that -- I think it was more general. It might have been a more general sense.

A JUROR: Are there any other questions about personal safety?

A JUROR: Are we still on December? December, January? - -

A JUROR: - Yes.

A JUROR: I have one follow-up question if this is

1141

an appropriate time about that gifts. And, - again, if you have your proffer there?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: At that top of page 7, where you say in your proffer that when Ms. Curie called later that afternoon she said, at least I think you mean that she said that that President had told her Ms. L wanted her to hold on to something for her. Do you remember Betty Currie saying that the President had told her to call?

THE WITNESS: Right now, I don't. I don't remember, but when I wrote this, I was being truthful.

The other thing, and this is something that I was thinking about this morning in relation to the proffer, that I had written this proffer obviously being truthful, but I think that when I wrote this, it was my understanding that this was to bring me to the step of getting an immunity agreement, and so I think that sometimes to -- that I didn't know this was going to become sort of this staple document, I think, for everything, and so there are things that can be misinterpreted from in here, even from me re-reading it, the conditions - - some of the conditions maybe under which I wrote it.

So I just thought I should sort of say that, that where - - I mean, I know -- I certainly was not untruthful or trying to be misleading in this. I didn't think it was going

1142

to be - - this was my understanding of a written thing that I would - - that I would attest to under oath and that it wouldn't be number 7, read this is this -- do you --

BY MR. EMMICK:
Q So it may not be written with legal precision?

-A Exactly.
Q But there's no intentional falsehoods in it?
A No. - -
Q You were trying to be truthful throughout?

A Exactly. - \

A JUROR: And my purpose in raising it really is to just see whether this might jog your recollection at all as to something you might have recalled back in February that you don't recall today.

- THE WITNESS: It doesn't.

A JUROR: It does not?

THE WITNESS: It's possible, but -- I -- I -- it's not my - - you know - -
A JUROR: Okay.
- THE WITNESS: -- my memory right now.
A JUROR: Any other questions on that subject?
A JUROR: If we don't have any other questions, I

guess the other thing that we wanted to ask you a little bit about is when you were first approached by Mr. Emmick and his colleagues at the OIC. -

1143

Can you -tell us a little bit about how that happened? That's not a happy topic, either, I apologize.

MR. EMMICK: Maybe if I could ask, what areas do you want to get into? Because there's -- you know -- many hours of activity --

A JUROR: Well, one specific -- okay. One specific question that people have is when did you first learn that Linda Tripp had been taping your phone conversations?

THE WITNESS: I believe that I didn't learn that extent to which she had taped my conversations, until I read it in the press.
- - I learned that day that she had worn a wire at the

lunch and that I -- and that there had been other people, I think, in the restaurant that had been listening in and - - so I knew -- she had -- she had said that -- that -- when I was first apprehended, she was - - she had said that they had done the same thing to her and she tried to hug me and she told me this was the best thing for me to do and -- oh.

MR. EMMICK: Any other specific questions about that day? I just -- this was a long day. There were a lot of things that - -

A JUROR: We want to know about that day.

A JUROR: That day.

A JUROR: The first question.

A JUROR: Yes.

1144

- A JUROR: We really want to know about that day.

MR. EMMICK: All right. - -

THE WITNESS: Linda was supposed to go see this new attorney that she had claimed she had gotten and was going to try to sign an affidavit so she paged me in the morning, I called her beck and she told me she wanted to meet me before she went to see the attorney. So we planned to meet at the Ritz Carlton in the food court at -- I think it was quarter to one. -

- She was late. I saw her come down that escalator.

And as I - - as I walked toward her, she kind of motioned behind her and Agent and Agent presented themselves to me and --

- A JUROR: Do you want to take a minute?

- - THE WITNESS: And flashed their badges at me.

They told me that I wee under some kind of investigation, something had to do with the Paula Jones case, that they --that they wanted to talk to me and give me a chance, I think, to cooperate, maybe.

I -- to help myself. I told them I wasn't speaking to them without my attorney.

- They told me that that was fine, but I should know I won't be given as much information and won't be able to help myself as much with my attorney there. So I agreed to go. I was so scared.

1145

(The witness begins crying.)

A JUROR: So, Monica, did you go to a room with them at that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A JUROR: And at that time, did you talk to anybody

or what did you do? Did you want to call your mother?

THE WITNESS: Can Karen do that questioning now? This is -- can I ask you to step out?

MR. EMMICK: Sure. Okay. All right.

MS. IMMERGUT: I guess, Monica, if Mike could just stay - - do you mind if Mike is in here?
THE WITNESS: (Nods affirmatively. )
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. Would you rather --
THE WITNESS: (Nods affirmatively.)
MR. EMMICK: Okay. That's fine. -
BY MS. IMMERGUT: -
Q Okay. Did you go to a room with them at that hotel?
A Yes.
Q And what did you do then? Did you ever tell them

that you wanted to call your mother?
A I told them I wanted to talk to my attorney.
Q Okay. So what happened?

A And they told me -- Mike came out and introduced himself to me and told me that - - that Janet Reno had sanctioned Ken Starr to investigate my actions in the Paula

1146

Jones case, that they -- that they knew that I had signed a false affidavit, they had me on tape saying I had committed perjury, that they were going to -- that I could go to jail for 27 years, they were going to charge me-with perjury and obstruction of justice and subornation of perjury and witness tampering and something else.

QUESTION: And you're saying "they, " at that point, who was
talking to you about that stuff? \ \
A Mike Emmick and the two FBI guys. And I made Linda
stay in the room. And I just -- I felt so bad. -

QUESTION: Now, when you say you felt bad, because you felt responsible somehow for pulling that President into something?
A Yes. -

QUESTION: And is that something that still weighs heavily on you, that you feel responsible?
A Yes.

QUESTION: And Os it - - do you feel responsible because you told Linda about your relationship?

A Yes.

QUESTION: I guess later just to sort of finish up, I guess, with the facts of that day, was there a time then that you were - - you just waited with the prosecutors until your mother came down?
A No.

O Okay.

1147

A I mean, there was, but they -- they told me they wanted - me to cooperate. I asked them what cooperating - meant, it entailed,- and they told me that--- they had -- first they had told me before about that -- that they had had me on tape saying things from the lunch that I had had with Linda at the Ritz Carlton the other day and they -- then they told me that I -- that I'd have to agree to be debriefed and that I'd have to place calls or wear a wire to see -- to call Betty and Mr. Jordan and possibly the President. And --

QUESTION: And did you tell them you didn't want to do that? A Yes. I -- I -- I remember going through my mind, I

thought, well, what if -- you know, what if I did that and I messed up, if I on purpose -- you know, I envisioned myself in Mr. Jordan's office and sort of trying to motion to him that something had gone wrong. They said that they would be watching to see if it had been an intentional mistake.

Then I-wanted to call my mom and they kept telling

me-that they didn't -- that I couldn't tall anybody about

this, they didn't want anyone to find Out and that they didn't want -- that was the reason I couldn't call Mr.; Carter, was because they were afraid that he might tall the parson who took me to Mr. Carter.

- They told me that I could call this number and get another criminal attorney, but I didn't want that and I didn't trust them. Then I just cried for a long time. -

1148

A JUROR: All while you were crying, did they-keep asking you questions? What were they doing? -

THE WITNESS: No, they just sat there and then --they just sort of sat there.

A JUROR: How many hours did this go on?

- TIME WITNESS: Maybe around two hours or so. And

then they were - - they kept saying there was this time

constraint, there was a time constraint; I had to make a
decision. \

- And then Bruce Udolf came in at some point and then - - then Jackie Bennett came in and there were a:

whole bunch-of other people and the room was crowded and he was saying to me, you know, you have to make a decision. I had wanted to call my mom, they weren't going to let me call my attorney, so I just --I wanted to call my mom and they - -

Then Jackie Bennett said, "You're 24. you're smart, you're old enough, you don't need to call your mommy."

And then I said, "Well, I'm letting you know that I'm leaning towards not cooperating," you know.

- And they had told me before that I could leave whenever I wanted, but it wasn't -- you know, I didn't --I didn't really know--- I didn't know what that meant. - I mean, I thought if I left then that they ware just going to arrest
me. - -

1149

And so then they told me that I should know that they were planning to prosecute my mom for the things that I had said that she had done.

- (The witness begins crying.)

MS. IMMERGUT: Do you want to take a break, Monica?

THE WITNESS: Yes. -

(Witness excused.- Witness recalled.)

THE FOREPERSON: Okay. We-have a quorum. There are no unauthorized people and Monica is already aware that she is still under oath.

MS. IMMERGUT: We just have a couple more questions and then I think we'll break for lunch.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

A JUROR: Monica, I have a question. A minute ago

you explained 'that the reason why you couldn't call Mr. Carter was that something might be disclosed. Is that right?

- THE WITNESS: It was -- they sort of' said that --you know, I -- I -- I could call Frank Carter, but that they may not -- I think it was that -- you know, that first time or the second time?

A JUROR: Any time.

THE WITNESS: Well, the first time when I asked, that I said I wasn't going to talk to them without my lawyer, they told me that if my lawyer was there, they wouldn't give me as much information and I couldn't help myself as much, so

1150

94
that - -

A JUROR: Did they ever tell you that you-could not call Mr. Carter?

- THE WITNESS: No. What they told me was that if I called Mr. Carter, I wouldn't necessarily still be offered an immunity agreement. -

- A JUROR: And did you feel threatened by that?
- THE WITNESS: Yes.

- A JUROR: And you said they offered you a chance to call another attorney?

THE WITNESS: Yes. - - -

A JUROR: - And did you take them up on that offer?

THE WITNESS: No.

- - A JUROR: Why not?

THE WITNESS: Because I didn't trust them.

- - A JUROR: I see. And at some point in this meeting, did you -- you did obtain an attorney? Mr. Ginsberg?

THE WITNESS: Well, like at 11:00 that night. A JUROR: So it was seven hours or eight hours or

more later?

- THE WITNESS: They -- they finally let me call my mom, so I want to call my mom and then -- and I saw Linda again. She had been shopping or something like that. But I called my mom and then Mike had said that she could call him,

1151

so they called her or she called him or something like that and then they agreed to let her come down.

So she took that train and then -- and then he just sort of -- I shut down and I kind of -- you know, I thought maybe I should try and make these people like me, so I tried to be nice and I told jokes and I asked if we could walk around the mall because I couldn't sit in that room any more.
And I just - - -

BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q So did they let you do that?

A Mm-hmm, So Mike and Agent took me and we walked around that mall and we ate dinner and then we went beck to that room and I read Psalm 21 about a million times. And my mom's train had been -- there were problems with her train and then finally she got there and they told me they were going to want to talk to my mom alone for a little bit, but I got to talk to her. - -

And I was -- I didn't -- I didn't want to cooperate. I mean, I didn't -- I just kept thinking to -myself, well -- wall, I'll just say I made it all up, I'll just -- I'll just -- I -- I couldn't imagine -- I couldn't imagine doing this to the President. And I felt so wrong and guilty for having told Linda and that she had done all this.

- But - - so then they took my mom into another room for a really long time and she had - - then when she came

1152

beck, they called my dad. And then we finally - - and then I talked to my dad and then -- then -- Ginsberg came on the scene. And he --

A JUROR: So if I understand it, you first met that agents. Agents and at around 1:00 and it wasn't until about 11 p.m. that you had an opportunity to talk to a lawyer?

THE WITNESS: Yes,

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

QUESTION: Although you-were allowed to -- the thing with Frank Carter was that they were afraid he would tell Vernon Jordan? Is that what they expressed to you?

A Right. And I had -- I had -- I think that someone said that Frank wasn't even -- Frank was a civil attorney and so that he really couldn't help me anyway, so I asked him if at least I could call and ask him for a recommendation for a criminal attorney and they didn't think that was a good idea.

And then I said, well, what about -- if I want to get in touch with Mr. Carter later, if I decide that's what I want to do, you know, and he's not there, because it's Friday and it was a holiday weekend, so then Agent Fallon went in the other room to find out if he had a service or something or another, a pager, I don't know -- - -

QUESTION: Some way for you to reach him later?

A Mm-hmm. - - \ -

1153

A JUROR: Sounds as though they were actively discouraging you from talking to an attorney.

THE WITNESS: Yea.

A JUROR: Is that a fair characterization?

THE WITNESS: Yes,

BY MS. IMMMERGUT:

QUESTION: Well, from Frank Carter.

A From Frank Carter, who was my only attorney at that point.

MS. IMMERGUT: Right. Right.

THE WITNESS: So I could have called any other attorney but - -

A JUROR: You didn't have another attorney.

THE WITNESS: I didn't have another attorney and this was my attorney for this case, so - - I mean, this was - -

A JUROR: And this is the attorney who had helped you with the affidavit.

THE WITNESS: Yes. And that -- the affidavit --well, the affidavit wasn't even filed yet. It was Fed Ex'd out on that day. So --

A JUROR: Monica, when you called your mother, how much were you able to tell her over the phone? Very little or - -

THE WITNESS: I was hysterical. She didn't understand what I was saying, but I told her that - - that that

1154

FBI had me and there was something with the Paula Jones case and Linda and then she - - she - - I said that - - that the guy said you could call her -- you can-call him and so she just told me to calm down and I was screaming that, you know, "They want me to cooperate and I don't want to cooperate, don't make me cooperate, don't make me do this," and she --she said it-was okay, don't worry, don't worry, and then she talked to Mike Emmick and they let her come down. So. I mean, she -- I don't know.

A JUROR: Did you feel better after you talked to your mother?

THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah.

A JUROR: Gained that support?

THE W ITNESS: Yeah.

A JUROR: Okay.

THE WITNESS: - Yeah. - I mean --

A JUROR: And what were you thinking about. Linda at this time?

- THE WITNESS: -Linda? Did you say --

A JUROR: Mm-hmm. Did you know exactly what had happened? That you had been - -

THE WITNESS: No. - I was under the impression that - - what I was thinking at that point was that they had - - that they had listened in on our conversation on the phone and that then they came to her and said she was in

1155

trouble for something and that then she let them listen in on this lunch conversation because she had said "They did that same thing to me. They did the same thing to me," So I didn't understand what she meant by that.

And then she said, "This is that best thing for you," as if I was left to believe that she had -- this was somehow something she had done and that she was trying to -help me.

And I thought, - "Why did she tell them? Why didn't she just say it was nonsense, it wasn't true? Why did she tell them that I had had this relationship with him?" And so - - you know - - and they had pictures of me at lunch with her. So --

- A JUROR: That pictures were that taped lunch? -THE WITNESS: Yes. That wire lunch.

A JUROR: The wired lunch.

- THE WITNESS: Yes. So that -- because they --because I had said on one of that tapes that -- you know, if there was a tape of me -- I had -- I had -- I didn't know how the Paula Jones people had gotten my name and I thought maybe they had tapped my phone or maybe they had broken into my computer and read my e-mails.

- I didn't know how I had gotten involved in this case and so I had said to Linda, "Well, if they have me on tape, I'll just say it's not me. I'll just say it's not me.

1156

100

I'll deny it. I'll deny everything. " -A JUROR: So they took pictures. -

TNE WITNESS: Right. So they said, "We have you on tape saying that you'd deny it and we have pictures to prove -that you were there," So --

- A JUROR: During this time in that hotel with them, did you feel threatened?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

- A JUROR: Did you feel that they had set a trap?

THE WITNESS: I -- I -- I did and I had -- I didn't understand -- I didn't understand why they -- why they had to trap me into coming there, why they had to trick me into coming there. I mean, this had all been a set-up and that why -- I mean, that was just so frightening. It was so incredibly frightening. -

And they told me, you know, over and over again I was free to leave whenever I wanted, but -- I -- I didn't --I didn't know that there's a grand jury and indicted and then you go to jail. I mean, and a trial and everything, I didn't understand that.

And so I didn't -- you know, then there was something that, well, if I partially cooperate, they'll talk to that judge, some -- you know, we're prepared to indict you or something like that for all these things. And I just didn't -- -

1157
101
- BY MS. IMMERGUT: -
Q So you didn't know what would happen if you left.
A No. And then it wasn't until my mom was there that

Mike Emmick cleared it up and said to my mom, "Well, it's not that we'll arrest you tonight when you leave the hotel." You know, Because I didn't -- I didn't know.
Q And you didn't end up cooperating that evening.
A No, I didn't. Because -- well --

A JUROR: Excuse me. When you said they trapped you, you went there on the invitation of Linda for lunch or something?

THE WITNESS: Yes,

A JUROR: So, I mean, how did -- I mean, in your mind, how did you get to that fact that they were the one?
Wasn't it-just Linda? - -

THE WITNESS: No, because they were with Linda. When I met Linda in that food court at Pentagon City, that two agents were with her, -

- - A JUROR: Oh, okay.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, And that's where -- so it was right - - have you ever been to Pentagon City mall?

A JUROR: Mm-hmm.

THE WITNESS: So it was right down in the food court, you know the escalator to come down is over here?

A JUROR: Mm-hmm.

1158

102

THE WITNESS: So -- see, they were with her when she met me right -- right in that middle. - - -

A JUROR: Okay.

THE WITNESS: And that's where -- and then --

(Pause. )

A JUROR: I think that's all-the questions on that topic. There is one other question. -

- Going back to Monday night and the President's speech, what did you want or expect to hear from the President?

- THE WITNESS: I-think what I wanted and expected were two different things. I had -- I had been hurt when he referred to me as "that woman" in January, but I was also glad. I was glad that he made that statement and I felt that was that best thing for him to do, was to deny this. -And --but I had-been hurt, I mean, it showed me how angry he was with me and I understood that.

And his - that people who work-for him have trashed me, they claim they haven't said anything about me, they have smeared me and they called me stupid, they said I couldn't write, they said I was a stalker, they said I wore -inappropriate clothes, I mean, you all know.

I mean, you've heard them in here, you've read that papers, you've seen on TV, and yet -- and then when it came out about that talking points, then somehow no one ever asked

1159

103

that question, well, how could -- if she was so stupid and she couldn't write, how is-it possible that she wrote that talking points? So than it was, wall, someone must have helped her with that. Oh, it's okay, though, it wasn't someone in that White House.

So I just -- my family had been maligned because of a lot of their tactics and I felt that - - I had wanted him to say that I was a nice, decent parson and that he was sorry this had happened because I--- I triad to-do as much as I could to protect him. - -

I mean, I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't allow him to be put on tape that night and I didn't -- and I -- I felt that I waited, you know, and I would have gone to trial had -- had -- in my mind, had there never been a point where that Office of that Independent Counsel and myself could come to - they could come to accept that truth I had to say, that that was that truth I had to give, and I'm only 24 and so I felt that I -- this has been hard for me and this has been hard on my family and I just wanted him to take back - - by saying something nice, he would have taken back every disgusting, horrible thing that anyone has said about me from that White House. And that was what I wanted.

- What I expected him to do was to just acknowledge in his -- either in his apology -- you know, that first of all I think he should have straight out apologized and I

1160

104

think that he could have-acknowledged that -- you know, apologized to me, I think, to that other people who were involved in this and to my family.

My - - my - dad didn't know anything about that relationship and when he went on his - - that few interviews he did, he was telling that truth when ha said he didn't know. But out of respect for the President and that presidency, he didn't say -- he could have easily said if this is true; X, Y and Z about that President, and I think that because my family didn't start a- huge uproar about how wrong or improper or inappropriate it was for a 50-year-old man to be having a relationship with a young woman, we afforded him that, that was one less headache that he had to deal with, and I think he could have acknowledged that, That was what I expected. Does that - -
w
A JUROR: Monica, none of us in this room are perfect. We all fall and we fall several times a day. That only difference between my age and when I was your age is now I get up faster. If I make a mistake and fall, I get up and brush myself off. - I used to stay there a while after a mistake. That's all I have to say.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MS. IMMERGUT: Let me just check with Mike.

- THE FOREPERSON: We do want - to share something with her.

1161

105

MS. IMMERGUT: -- Okay. So do you want to -- why don't we hold of f for just a second and-let me check with Mr. Emmick.

THE FOREPERSON: Okay.

- (Pause.)

MS. IMMERGUT: We don't have any further questions. A JUROR: Could I ask one?

- Monica, is there anything that you would like to add to your prior testimony, -either today-or that last time you were here, or anything that you think needs to be amplified on or clarified? I just want to give you that
fullest opportunity. ' \ -

THE WITNESS: I would. - I think because of that public nature of how this investigation has been and what that charges aired, that I would just like to say that no-one ever asked me to lie and I was never promised a job for my silence.

- - And that I'm sorry.-- I'm really sorry for everything that's happened. (The-witness begins to cry.) And I hate Linda Tripp.

A JUROR: Can I just say -- I mean, I think I should seize this opportunity now, that we've all fallen -short. We sin every day. I don't care whether it's murder, whether it's affairs or whatever. And we get over that. You ask forgiveness and you go on. - - -

- 1162

106

- There's some that are going to say that they don't

forgive you, but he whose sin -- you know -- that's -how I

feel about that. So to let you know from here, you have my

forgiveness. Because we all fall short. -

A JUROR: And that's what I was trying to say.

A JUROR: That's what it's about. -

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

- A JUROR: And I also want to say that even though right now you feel a lot of hate for Linda Tripp, but you need to move on and leave her where she is because whatever goes around comes around. - -
A JUROR: It comes around.
- A JUROR: It does.
A JUROR: And she is definitely going to have to

give an account for what she did, so you need to just go past her and don't keep her because that's going to keep you out.

A JUROR: That's right. - -

- A JUROR: And going to keep you from moving on.

A JUROR: Allowing you to move on.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q And just to clarify, and I know we've discussed

this before, despite your feelings about Linda Tripp, have you lied to this grand jury about anything with regard to Linda Tripp because you don't like her?
A I don't think that was necessary. No. It wouldn't

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have been necessary to lie, I think she's done enough on her own, so --

QUESTION: You would not do that just because of your feelings about her.

A No.

THE FOREPERSON: Basically what we wanted to leave with, because this will probably be your last visit to us, I hope, I hope I'm not going to have to do this any more and I hope you won't have to come here any more, but we wanted to offer you a bouquet of good wishes that includes luck, success, happiness and blessings.

THE WITNESS: Thank you. (The witness begins to cry.) I appreciate all of your understanding for this situation and your - - your ability to open your heart and your mind and -- and your soul. I appreciate that.

THE FOREPERSON: So if there's nothing else?

MR. EMMICK: Nothing else.

THE FOREPERSON: We'd like to excuse you and thank you very much for your testimony.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

(The witness was excused,)

(Whereupon, at 12:54 p.m., the taking of testimony in the presence of a full quorum of that Grand Jury was concluded )

a * * * *

1164

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, Amy K. Rose, the reporter for the United States Attorney's Office, do hereby certify that that witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing pages was first duly sworn by the foreperson or that deputy foreperson of the grand jury when there was a full quorum of that grand jury present: that that testimony of said witness was taken by me and, thereafter, reduced to typewritten form; and that that transcript is a true record of that testimony given by said witness.

Amy Rose
Official Reporter

Transcriber

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